So To Speak: The Free Speech Podcast

Much has been written in recent months about online campaigns to get certain journalists, movie directors, and professors fired from their jobs because of things they said or wrote. Some campaigns have been successful. Some have not. On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we talk about how these outrage mobs affect the world of comedy — in particular, one comedy club in Long Island City, New York. How should free speech advocates think about outrage mobs? Do they represent more speech, or a form of private censorship? Or is it more complicated? This episode of So to Speak is presented in partnership with Comedy Cellar: Live From the Table. It features: Nico Perrino, host, So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast Noam Dworman, owner, The Comedy Cellar Rebecca Trent, owner, The Creek and the Cave Dan Naturman, comedian Monroe Martin, comedian www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: sotospeak@thef

How should we think about speech rights in the age of artificial intelligence and advanced robotics? On today’s episode of So to Speak, we are joined by First Amendment scholars Ronald Collins and David Skover. They are the authors of the new book, Robotica: Speech Rights & Artificial Intelligence. From the printing press to the internet, advances in communications technology often upset the established order and spawn demands for censorship. There is little reason to suspect advances in artificial intelligence will be treated differently. As free speech advocates, how should we respond to these demands? To answer that question, Collins and Skover argue that we need to take a step back and ask some more fundamental questions about the values we seek to advance in protecting speech in the first place. www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: [email protected] in a question: 215-315-0100

On this episode of So to Speak, we chat with lawyer and free speech activist Jacob Mchangama. He is the founder and CEO of the Danish think tank Justitia, a visiting fellow at FIRE, and host of Clear and Present Danger: A History of Free Speech. Mchangama is also the author of the lead essay for the Cato Institute’s June Cato Unbound online debate on the topic of “how censorship crosses borders.” Our conversation focuses on the origins of Mchangama’s interest in free speech issues, the 2005 Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy, the history of free speech, and the critiques of his Cato Unbound essay. Show notes: Mchangama’s podcast, Clear and Present Danger: A History of Free Speech June Cato Unbound debate, “Free speech in international perspective” Mchangama’s essays for Cato So to Speak episode with Flemming Rose, who commissioned the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast E

Supreme Court review: Kennedy, Kavanaugh, and “weaponizing the First Amendment” On this episode of So to Speak, we discuss President Donald Trump’s nomination of Brett Kavanaugh to the United States Supreme Court and what it might mean for the First Amendment. We also review Anthony Kennedy’s legacy, the free speech cases from this past Supreme Court term, and Justice Elena Kagan’s contention that some of her colleagues are “weaponizing the First Amendment.” The guests on today’s show are: Paul Sherman: Senior attorney, Institute for Justice Bob Corn-Revere: Partner, Davis Wright Tremaine Walter Olson: Senior fellow, Cato Institute www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: [email protected] in a question: 215-315-0100

On today’s episode of So to Speak, we take a trip down memory lane. We are joined by FIRE’s Greg Lukianoff, Samantha Harris, and Will Creeley to discuss memorable cases from FIRE’s 19-year history. You can watch a video of this conversation on FIRE’s YouTube channel (youtube.com/thefireorg). www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: [email protected] in a question: 215-315-0100

The United States is unique in its protection of what some might label “hate speech.” Of course, certain expression is unprotected, like incitement to imminent lawless action and true threats. But expression that is deemed merely offensive or hateful is generally protected. On this episode of So to Speak, we welcome back to the show former ACLU president and New York Law Professor Nadine Strossen. She is the author of “HATE: Why We Should Resist It With Free Speech, Not Censorship.” In this new book, she argues that America’s broad protections for hateful speech are a good thing, and that efforts to censor such speech has historically backfired or been proven ineffective. www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: [email protected] in a question: 215-315-0100

In February, Princeton University President Christopher Eisgruber announced that he will distribute copies of “Speak Freely: Why Universities Must Defend Free Speech” to all Princeton students and faculty as part of the university’s annual “Pre-read” program. On this episode of So to Speak, our guest is Princeton University Professor Keith Whittington, who is the author of “Speak Freely.” We discuss the latest campus free speech news at Princeton and across the county. We are also joined by FIRE Vice President of Policy Research Samantha Harris, who is a Princeton alumna and Professor Whittington’s former student. www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: [email protected] in a question: 215-315-0100

Is there a campus free speech crisis? In March, FIRE staff discussed the question. On today’s episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we put the question to others and feature audio from a live debate that occurred on May 8 in New York City. New York magazine’s Andrew Sullivan and New York University’s Jonathan Haidt argue, yes, there is a campus free speech crisis. PEN America’s Suzanne Nossel and Acadia University’s Jeffrey Sachs argue, no, there is not. Freethink’s Kmele Foster moderates. The debate took place at The Village Underground and was sponsored by FIRE and the Comedy Cellar as a part of “The Underground Debate Series.” Who do you think won the debate? Share your thoughts on social media and tag the podcast using @freespeechtalk on Twitter. www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: [email protected] Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Anthony Comstock is a name that has become synonymous with censorship in America. In 1873, he founded the New York Society for the Suppression of Vice, and his career led to the confiscation or incineration of more than 3 million pieces of allegedly “obscene, lewd, or lascivious” material. On this episode of So to Speak, we speak with Fashion Institute of Technology Professor Amy Werbel about her new book, “Lust on Trial: Censorship and the Rise of American Obscenity in the Age of Anthony Comstock,” and the legacy of Comstock’s “Comstockery.” Don’t forget! Join us on May 8 at the Comedy Cellar in New York City for a live debate: “Is there a campus free speech crisis?” Tickets are now available from comedycellar.com. www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: [email protected] in a question: 215-315-0100

What are the greatest threats to a free press in America, and how have they changed in recent years? On this episode of So to Speak, we speak with Laura R. Handman, who is a partner at Davis Wright Tremaine and a co-chair of the firm’s appellate practice. For 30 years, she has worked on free press issues ranging from defamation to reporter’s privilege. Her media clients include National Public Radio, Atlantic Media, Dow Jones, The Economist, Amazon, Bloomberg, and many more. Don’t forget! Join us on May 8 at the Comedy Cellar in New York City for a live debate: “Is there a campus free speech crisis?” Tickets are now available from comedycellar.com. www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: [email protected] in a question: 215-315-0100

In January, President Donald Trump called America’s libel laws “a sham and a disgrace.” Are they? On this episode of So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast, we sit down with Ballard Spahr Senior Counsel Lee Levine to discuss what America’s libel “laws” really are — and are not. www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: [email protected] in a question: 215-315-0100

Is there a campus free speech crisis? On this episode of So to Speak, Nico Perrino is joined by FIRE’s Will Creeley and Samantha Harris to discuss this simmering question. Watch the video of this podcast recording: youtu.be/uoO6TCAQpaE Additional reading: “The ‘campus free speech crisis’ is a myth. Here are the facts.” by Jeffrey Adam Sachs “Everything we think about the political correctness debate is wrong” by Matthew Yglesias “The skeptics are wrong: Attitudes about free speech on campus are changing” by Sean Stevens and Jonathan Haidt “White House forum discusses free speech on campus” by Robert Shibley/FIRE “Gallup/Knight survey sheds light on changing student attitudes about free speech” by Nico Perrino/FIRE www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: [email protected] in a question: 215-315-0100

In 2012, a same-sex couple entered Masterpiece Cakeshop and asked its owner, Jack Phillips, to create a cake for their wedding reception in Denver, Colorado. Phillips declined the request, reportedly telling the couple, “Sorry guys, I don’t make cakes for same-sex weddings.” That brief, 20-second exchange eventually found its way to the U.S. Supreme Court, where it is now the subject of one of the most controversial First Amendment cases in years. The issue before the court is whether applying Colorado's public accommodations law to compel Phillips to create a cake for a gay wedding violates the free speech or free exercise clauses of the First Amendment. On this episode of So to Speak, we feature a First Amendment Salon debate about the case that occured last month. Arguing on the side of Masterpiece Cakeshop are Robert Corn-Revere (Davis Wright Tremaine) and Ilya Shapiro (Cato Institute). Arguing on the side of the Colorado Civil Rights Commission are John Paul Schnapper-Casteras (Schnapper-Casteras PLLC

Former Evergreen State College Professor Bret Weinstein describes himself as a “professor in exile.” The evolutionary biologist left Evergreen last September in the fallout from the controversy surrounding the school’s planned Day of Absence programming. Weinstein’s objection to the programming led fifty students to disrupt his class and demand his resignation. The backlash became so intense that Evergreen’s chief of police told him she could not protect him from protesters. As a result, he had to hold his biology course in a public park. On this episode of So to Speak, we speak with Weinstein about his experience and the state of free speech and inquiry in higher education and beyond. www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: [email protected] Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Most Americans are familiar with The Great Wall of China. Fewer are familiar with the Great Firewall of China. The Firewall blocks vast expanses of the world’s web content — and it’s just one of the tools the Chinese government uses to monitor, censor, and even manipulate what its approximately 1.4 billion citizens see online. On this episode of So to Speak, we explore one of the most extensive and effective censorship systems ever devised by a government. How does the Chinese government do it? And why? For answers, we turn to the experts: “Charlie Smith,” the pseudonymous co-founder of anti-censorship group greatfire.org, working secretly in China; Jeremy Goldkorn, a co-founder of the Sinica Podcast and editor of supchina; and Bill Bishop, editor of the popular China policy newsletter Sinocism. www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: [email protected] Call in a question: 215-315-0100

In 2001, University of Alaska president Mark Hamilton made national headlines when he wrote a sternly worded memo declaring that freedom of speech on campus “CANNOT BE QUALIFIED” [emphasis original]. Hamilton retired from his position as University of Alaska president in 2010. However, his memo lives on in FIRE lore as the gold standard for a university president's response to a campus free speech controversy. On this episode of So to Speak, we talk with Hamilton about his famous memo and what he makes of today’s campus free speech controversies. We also explore his illustrious career prior to becoming a university president, where he learned a thing or two about negotiation, talking across lines of difference, and defending the U.S. Constitution. Hamilton has a master’s degree in English literature from Florida State University and taught English at West Point. He also spent 31 years in the U.S. Army, where he negotiated peace deals in El Salvador and Somalia, oversaw U.S. Army recruiting during the “be

Has the history of how our constitutional rights came to be protected on campus been forgotten? Professor Randall L. Kennedy believes it has. It’s a history even he wasn’t familiar with until recently. On this episode of So to Speak, Professor Kennedy explains how civil rights activists in the 1950s and 60s secured early victories for free speech, due process, and public assembly on high school and college campuses. Professor Kennedy teaches courses on contracts, criminal law, and the regulation of race relations at Harvard Law School, and he is the author of “The Forgotten Origins of the Constitution on Campus.” Prior to arriving at Harvard, he was a law clerk for Justice Thurgood Marshall at the United States Supreme Court. BONUS: Check out and subscribe to the new FIRE-sponsored podcast, Clear and Present Danger: A History of Free Speech. www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: [email protected] Call i

Was our modern First Amendment born out of a chance encounter on a train bound for Boston in 1918? On this episode of So to Speak, we speak with Seton Hall Law Professor Thomas Healy. He argues that Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes’ unlikely run-in with Judge Learned Hand in the summer of 1918 set off a series of events that culminated in a new trajectory for the First Amendment in America. Professor Healy is the author of “The Great Dissent: How Oliver Wendell Holmes Changed His Mind — and Changed the History of Free Speech in America.” The book explores how one man who claimed to disdain all constitutional rights ended up breathing new meaning into our first one. www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: [email protected] Call in a question: 215-315-0100

Did the founders intend for the First Amendment to protect as much speech as it does today? University of Richmond Assistant Professor of Law Jud Campbell argues probably not. He is the author of an article recently published in The Yale Law Journal that Cass Sunstein says “might well be the most illuminating work on the original understanding of free speech in a generation.” In “Natural Rights and the First Amendment,” professor Campbell argues that the founders’ understanding of the freedoms of speech and of the press rested on “a multifaceted understanding of natural rights that no longer survives in American constitutional thought.” He contends that those rights “were expansive in scope but weak in their legal effect, allowing for restrictions of expression to promote the public good.” On this episode of So to Speak, we investigate professor Campbell’s claims and wonder, if true, what — if anything — we should do about them. www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like

The Institute for Justice doesn’t litigate your typical First Amendment cases. They don’t take cases involving protest bans, controversial speakers, or political dissent. Instead, the libertarian, public-interest law firm takes cases often ascribed to the margins of First Amendment concerns by the public and even some judges: cases involving occupational speech, commercial speech, and campaign finance. On this episode of So to Speak, we speak with IJ President and General Counsel Scott Bullock about the origin of IJ’s unique brand of First Amendment litigation. Bullock joined the organization at its founding in 1991 and was involved in all of its early free speech cases. We also discuss some of IJ’s current cases and some common arguments against its stances on First Amendment issues. www.sotospeakpodcast.com Follow us on Twitter: twitter.com/freespeechtalk Like us on Facebook: facebook.com/sotospeakpodcast Email us: [email protected] Call in a question: 215-315-0100